Best episode?

[Strayed Wanderer]

I prefered Episode 5's dungeons more than 4s because of the battles. The Blood Lyn and Shadow Lords got really boring.

[DSOK]

You didn't like destroyed Estrana or the forest with the flower puzzle or the dungeon in the snowy place (the one with the door switches)? I tought they were some of the best stuff in the game, gameplay wise. And how can you say that you'd expect CAVES filled with blood lyn under a city? The mine where you meet Dirk, yes, but the caves were just fillers as well you know.

The dream Estrana was fine, although I wouldn't really consider it a dungeon; there were, after all, no enemy encounters. The forest and the dungeon in the mountains were among my least favorites in the whole game, in large part because the challenges they offered made almost no sense. How is that flower-based maze supposed to work? You go too far one direction and suddenly you're back somewhere else, and you can't backtrack. I didn't like mazes like that when they appeared in Zork, and I still don't. And why would anybody design a base with a system of doors like the one in that dungeon? It must make getting around really convenient.

The dungeons in Episode 4 didn't feel to me like filler at all. (And if I had to pick the one that seemed most like padding, I'd choose the mines.) So kindly don't project your own beliefs onto me.

[fwacho]

[quote="DSOK"
The dream Estrana was fine, although I wouldn't really consider it a dungeon; there were, after all, no enemy encounters. The forest and the dungeon in the mountains were among my least favorites in the whole game, in large part because the challenges they offered made almost no sense. How is that flower-based maze supposed to work? You go too far one direction and suddenly you're back somewhere else, and you can't backtrack. I didn't like mazes like that when they appeared in Zork, and I still don't. [/quote]

The flower based maze is actually incredibly simple once you figure out the tell. even i stumbled aound in it for awhile until I remembered the clue. (It's so simple It makes you want to slap your forehead)...

[Flibbo]

that flower puzzle was easy but i still really liked it

[Lucre Mammon]

The flower based maze is actually incredibly simple once you figure out the tell. even i stumbled aound in it for awhile until I remembered the clue. (It's so simple It makes you want to slap your forehead)...

There's a clue? I just used trial and error. What's the clue?

[Kyle]

The dream Estrana was fine, although I wouldn't really consider it a dungeon; there were, after all, no enemy encounters. The forest and the dungeon in the mountains were among my least favorites in the whole game, in large part because the challenges they offered made almost no sense. How is that flower-based maze supposed to work? You go too far one direction and suddenly you're back somewhere else, and you can't backtrack. I didn't like mazes like that when they appeared in Zork, and I still don't. And why would anybody design a base with a system of doors like the one in that dungeon? It must make getting around really convenient.

The dungeons in Episode 4 didn't feel to me like filler at all. (And if I had to pick the one that seemed most like padding, I'd choose the mines.) So kindly don't project your own beliefs onto me.

First of all, I can't believe you don't remember DESTROYED ESTRANA, Estrana in ruin, Estrana AFTER invasion from the pits! The dungeon at the very start of Episode 5? The one with the grenade like enemies? The one where you save Kloe from the burning house? Not DREAM ESTRANA (which was cool in its own terms, but indeed not a dungeon).

Second, why would anyone put a laboratory at the end of a long cave with a bridge that needs triggering and switches that need to pulled in the right order to open up a door? Makes just as little sense as most other dungeons. Again, it's a GAME, it's supposed to be fun and have puzzles.

Suppose your mission is to kidnap a princess. You know where the princess' chamber is in the castle, so you could just walk over to that place and get it done with in less than 30 seconds. But that wouldn't be fun, would it? The door would be locked or the stairs would be slippery so you'd have to do some stuff, maybe in the basement, solve some puzzles to get anti-slippery shoes with which you can get on the stairs and track down the key through some other puzzles on the next floor of the castle. For me, THAT'S what a game is.

I suppose you don't like the idea of Traziun coming back into the party either? I mean, why would you need Rhue or other members if you have uber-traziun? He might be back, but probably toned down a bit.

Rhue's sword protects him, so I guess game overs should be impossible, right? I mean, why doesn't his sword protect him then?

These are all things a game should have. So, unless you're used to playing 3D SWAT versus Terrorist shooters I don't see how you can object to illogical dungeon design.

The flower maze was essentially built to get lost in. You get to a new part, but it looks just the same as where you've been before. That's why... It's a MAZE!

And by the way, when did I project my believes onto you? I was just stating my own opinion.

[DSOK]

[First of all, I can't believe you don't remember DESTROYED ESTRANA, Estrana in ruin, Estrana AFTER invasion from the pits! The dungeon at the very start of Episode 5? The one with the grenade like enemies? The one where you save Kloe from the burning house? Not DREAM ESTRANA (which was cool in its own terms, but indeed not a dungeon).

I hadn't exactly forgotten it, but it didn't impress me that much either. The limitations on where you could go felt a bit contrived, and the plot of saving Kloe was fine, but not overly inspired.

Second, why would anyone put a laboratory at the end of a long cave with a bridge that needs triggering and switches that need to pulled in the right order to open up a door? Makes just as little sense as most other dungeons. Again, it's a GAME, it's supposed to be fun and have puzzles.

There are puzzles that could represent reasonable security measures (such as you have just described) and those that couldn't. The bridges were easily defensible, and entry to Jopaga's actual laboratory closely restricted. On the other hand, the doors in Tetzel's dungeon had no reasonable purpose that I could work out. They were there exclusively as game obstacles.

Suppose your mission is to kidnap a princess. You know where the princess' chamber is in the castle, so you could just walk over to that place and get it done with in less than 30 seconds. But that wouldn't be fun, would it? The door would be locked or the stairs would be slippery so you'd have to do some stuff, maybe in the basement, solve some puzzles to get anti-slippery shoes with which you can get on the stairs and track down the key through some other puzzles on the next floor of the castle. For me, THAT'S what a game is.

There has to be something more to it than just walking up to her chamber, yes. However, it should be something essentially logical. Unless the maid is a prisoner in her step-father's castle, it makes little sense that the stairs up to her tower room should be coated in a grease that requires special magic shoes to get passed. On the other hand, there are numerous more reasonable measures that could be taken to protect her from encroachments.

I suppose you don't like the idea of Traziun coming back into the party either? I mean, why would you need Rhue or other members if you have uber-traziun? He might be back, but probably toned down a bit.

Having lost his mind to his father's manipulations, I doubt Traziun wil be back as a playable character in the near term.

Rhue's sword protects him, so I guess game overs should be impossible, right? I mean, why doesn't his sword protect him then?

Um, no. Rhue's sword seems to protect him in certain special circumstances, generally when there is another magical blade involved. I cannot honestly see what point you are endeavoring to make.

These are all things a game should have. So, unless you're used to playing 3D SWAT versus Terrorist shooters I don't see how you can object to illogical dungeon design.

The flower maze was essentially built to get lost in. You get to a new part, but it looks just the same as where you've been before. That's why... It's a MAZE!

It's a maze, but a maze that could never be constructed in real life. The only alternative is that the forest itself is magical, but why should the mystical powers of the wood choose to enchant their desmense in such a contrived fashion?

And by the way, when did I project my believes onto you? I was just stating my own opinion.

This was it:

...but the caves were just fillers as well you know.

[EmperorJeramyu]

Interesting how videogames don't make sense.

[DSOK]

Interesting how videogames don't make sense.

I believe that RPGs--electronic or pencil and paper--should have an internal logic to them. When there's nothing magical going on, that logic ought to be about the same as the logic of our real world (although there can be exceptions to this). Even when magic is involved, there should feel like there's something underlying what happens--an explanation of events that we and the in-game characters can comprehend when we know the rules of magic.

[fwacho]

Keep in mind about teh FLower MAZE

1. The choices only represent path junctions... Rhue is wlkaing around in a forest and his snese of North and South has liekly been lost so what your not seeing a ton of boring loooking paths that take up memory (which lun does try to spare)

2. The above idea can make teh flower puzzle much more logical.


3. (SPOILER) watch the colors of the flowers and the paths they line up with. you'll note one color that shows up by itself and corresponds in line with a path. that should get you through easy.

4.Lun does not believe in giving puzzles without hints. He doesn't think its fun to just wander in a stupid maze using trial and error to get out. There must be a faily obvious clue

[DSOK]

Keep in mind about teh FLower MAZE

1. The choices only represent path junctions... Rhue is wlkaing around in a forest and his snese of North and South has liekly been lost so what your not seeing a ton of boring loooking paths that take up memory (which lun does try to spare)

Getting turned around isn't the only issue. (It was the only issue with the mazes in Zork, and I thought it was a cheap, illogical, and pointless trick when I first played those games. Having actually been to the maze upon which Zork is based, I can understand how one can lose one's bearings, but I still don't like it.) In the flower maze, the fact that you can't retrace your steps is a much, much bigger obstacle to reasonability.

2. The above idea can make teh flower puzzle much more logical.

It's "logical" only insofar as there's a way one can work out the solution systematically.

[EmperorJeramyu]

Last time I checked, the only thing that really needs to make sense in an RPG is the plotline.

I mean, come on, who actually would let their enemy take a 'turn' in combat?

[DSOK]

Last time I checked, the only thing that really needs to make sense in an RPG is the plotline.

Since when are the puzzles not part of the plot?

I mean, come on, who actually would let their enemy take a 'turn' in combat?

If all you've ever played in electronic RPGs, ths could seem bizarre. However, having long years of experiece with the pen and paper antecedents, I naturally interpret battles differently--in the fashion that RPG battles were originally intended to be interpreted. What do hit points symbolize, exactly? Not everyone who plays The Way knows that, but I do (and I think The Way actually does a much better job dealing with hit points than a game like Final Fantasy 7, say).

[Flibbo]

yeah i agree all that ff potion stuff is a bit silly and i think i understand what you mean about rpg's in your mind as i think i do the same or at least similar (thank you dnd)

[EmperorJeramyu]

Last time I checked, the only thing that really needs to make sense in an RPG is the plotline.

Since when are the puzzles not part of the plot?

Well, Lufia 2.

Come to think of it, most RPGs have random and pointless puzzles in caves and other unreasonable places, with switches that move walls, motion sensing statues, doors that react to the growth of plants, buttons that have to be pushed in a certain order, spikes, bottomless pits, and other things that have no relevance to a plotline.