Something I wanted to get off of my mind...

[SockHyren]

Nah, long and interesting posts are hard not to read. Hyren's doing a good job too.

Thanks! It's kind of odd since I tend to run out of things to say. Anywho...

Here, I think we find the crux of your confusion. I may (I don't recall) have said that I didn't think Cetsa and/or Strata were entitled to any mercy, but that doesn't mean that I'm against mercy for them. I don't think they must be "drug out into the street and shot," but, neither do I believe that the Vigilance Council's policy of doing this is wrong. There are many ways of reaching justice.

Bingo! That's why I made my original comment. Because it seemed like you liked the idea of the "evil" characters being ripped appart limb from limb (I'll be honest, I wanted to beat the shit out of Strata, but beingt that my Plunge stata is forever low, I can't XP). That's all I needed to hear. Hoo! Now I can go back to getting my ass handed to me by Sissy! (If you haven't played Power INstinct: Matrimelee, don't ask) XD

Oh wait, one more thing...

Rhan, Rhan's unfortunate girlfriend, Alan, Scatha, Dirk, Slade, Jed, Lyrra, Traziun....

Scatha, I don't know. I like Scatha, she kicks many an ass, but I'm not so sure about her being completely pure...She's more like a grey area type.

Killing in the heat of passion is not an excuse, but it is mitigation. One can commit an isolated evil act without being essentially evil. (You seem to believe that I have said otherwise, but I have not.)

Cool, and you're right, I did think you were putting that up as an excuse for her actions.

There's no reason why Cetsa can't receive mercy, but her death still serves the cause of justice. Her charitable acts are not very compelling. Scatha basically forces her to tell the truth, and her statement that she preferred not to kill is self-serving and uncorroborated. (That is not to say the Violet does not believe it herself, but it's easy to fool oneself into believing one is a better person than one actually is.) There is also the unanswered philosophical question of whether preferring not to kill, yet doing it anyway, makes one less evil at all!

It's a Thief's Curse, First you Steal, then you lie to cover it up, then when someone finds out, you kill, even if you don't want to. Cetsa didn't want to kill, but in some cases, she had to. Does that make her any more innocent, nope, it just says that she doesn't want to, and for me, not wanting to do something is a step in the right direction; though it's a really REALLY small step.
And about Cetsa trying to prove she changed, it'sjust part two of the Thief's curse; first you lie, then you tell the truth, but no one believes you, so you have to prove it. Cetsa was trying to prove something to someone who didn't trust her, and she ended up stabbed for it.

Yes, you missed that I never called anybody "good deep down." I think many of the major characters are evil; I mentioned a few above who don't seem evil, per se, but they may not show any particular evidence of good either. (Scatha, for example, is not evil, but she clearly does not base what she decides to do on a primarily moral decision-making process.)

But it did sound like that when you made the statement about Kloe, though. Maybe it was a misinterpretation.

And merely because I do not mention somebody as evil, that does not mean I consider them good. (Recall my earlier remark that it's quite possible for everyone in the game to be evil.) One specific example in this regard is important. I have not passed any moral judgements on Rhue, because he is clearly enchanted. Real-world standards of morality cannot apply to somebody under the influence of mind control magic. Until we know more about the nature of whatever is affecting Rhue's consciousness, it is impossible to ascertain where he stands on the good-evil axis.

But Rhue does seem to be making some pretty clear choices that are obviously evil in nature. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if something like this happened...

Person: Hey, I know something about Serena, but I'll only tell you if you push that old Lady into that bus.

Rhue: Done.

And, like for the last few episodes, all he'll say is "Burn me." and go get some ice cream (Not Literally). He even said himself that he wasn't ashamed of anything wrong he did, of course that before he killed Lexus. So, as far as I'm concerned, it's Rhue's ambition to find Serena that's making him evil as a character, not his sword. It might be a factor, but for the most part, it seemed like Rhue was in control.

[Impossible]

What was Cetsa's excuse for killing all those people at the end of E2?

[Amgard]

Anyone notice The Way is going the way (pun!) of FFT? As in the main character fades from "heroic" view and someone else will end up getting the credit for all the shit Rhue does? I have my money on Gaius.

[DSOK]

Rhan, Rhan's unfortunate girlfriend, Alan, Scatha, Dirk, Slade, Jed, Lyrra, Traziun....

Scatha, I don't know. I like Scatha, she kicks many an ass, but I'm not so sure about her being completely pure...She's more like a grey area type.

You asked for people who weren't evil, not for ones who were good. I also made some specific comments about Scatha later in the post:

(Scatha, for example, is not evil, but she clearly does not base what she decides to do on a primarily moral decision-making process.)

But Rhue does seem to be making some pretty clear choices that are obviously evil in nature. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if something like this happened...

You appear to be looking at Rhue's behavior as one would look at the behavior of the normal person. It's not at all established that "Rhue"--whoever that moniker refers to here--has any choice in what his body does. Take for example my point (descibed here) that it appears that Rhue's consciousness is not actually tied to his body, but rather to his sword. The (possibly) foreign sword consciousness may be making all the decisions now; the original Rhue would then be free of any moral responsibility for his body's actions.

The possibility of real mind control magic changes everything. Until we know how that magic works, it's impossible to formulate a system of moral judgements that's going to make sense. Often, evil magic can only tempt a person. (This, for example, is the point of view taken in Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings.) In that case, most (but perhaps not all) moral responsibility still lies with the person who commits an evil act. On the other hand, if the magic can convert its victim into an automaton, then the ensorcelled person cannot be held to account for what he is forced to do under enchantment.

[Amgard]

Yet we see Rhue showing generally positive emotions quite often. Take for example the Lexus scene. Remember he had NO intention to kill her specifically, only the first person to run through. It's Lexus' fault, not Rhue's. He was generally distraught from it, and became the first thing he ever regretted, but not the first thing he's ever judged himself on morally (remember Ep1 where he's in indecision whether or not he should hurt anybody to get his rabbit back).

Rhue has more of a lack of moral compass than an impulse to do bad things. Everything he does is derived from what he wants, but it reaches a limit where he won't pass. These tend to be his friends such as Kloe, Dirk or Trazuin.

[DSOK]

Yet we see Rhue showing generally positive emotions quite often. Take for example the Lexus scene. Remember he had NO intention to kill her specifically, only the first person to run through. It's Lexus' fault, not Rhue's. He was generally distraught from it, and became the first thing he ever regretted, but not the first thing he's ever judged himself on morally (remember Ep1 where he's in indecision whether or not he should hurt anybody to get his rabbit back).

I think you are entirely missing my point here. Because Rhue's consciousness has been magically modifiied, we cannot draw the same kind of inferences about his motivations and behavior that we would with a normal person. You are taking Rhue's silliloquies at face value, when even a normal person would not speak completely honestly to himself under such stressful consequences. In Rhue's case, where it's not even clear who is speaking to whom within his convoluted self, it's impossible to judge whether his behavior is good or evil.

Rhue has more of a lack of moral compass than an impulse to do bad things. Everything he does is derived from what he wants, but it reaches a limit where he won't pass. These tend to be his friends such as Kloe, Dirk or Trazuin.

Nobody does evil just for the sake of doing evil; they do it for their own advancement. "Rhue" appears to have some limits to what he's willing to do, but those are variable and, given my previous points, irrelevant.

[Amgard]

I think you are entirely missing my point here. Because Rhue's consciousness has been magically modifiied, we cannot draw the same kind of inferences about his motivations and behavior that we would with a normal person. You are taking Rhue's silliloquies at face value, when even a normal person would not speak completely honestly to himself under such stressful consequences. In Rhue's case, where it's not even clear who is speaking to whom within his convoluted self, it's impossible to judge whether his behavior is good or evil.

We have no proof or indication that his consiousness is modified at all. And yes, a normal person would "think" that way, because that's how he feels at that exact moment in time.

Nobody does evil just for the sake of doing evil; they do it for their own advancement. "Rhue" appears to have some limits to what he's willing to do, but those are variable and, given my previous points, irrelevant.

He could have had every ability to kill Sorya (and will half the time), he could've easily slaughtered everybody in Three Trees and made off with the rabbit, but he went against it. He's not even CLOSE to evil. Just confused, and rather self-centered. He killed Lexus by fluke and Lyrra in defense. Cetsa, he saw as a menace to everyone and left her to die. Not factoring in the fact she lied to him repeatedly.

[DSOK]

We have no proof or indication that his consiousness is modified at all. And yes, a normal person would "think" that way, because that's how he feels at that exact moment in time.

No proof? I agree, there is no absolute proof.
No indication? What the hell game have you been playing?!?

[Kyle]

No indication? What the hell game have you been playing?!?

A great one!

[Amgard]

There is no indication. None.

His sword could simply be a magnet, repelling certain energies and attracting others. For example, it attracts auras like Slade's, Cade's and Jed's. It repels Ghost Horror (Traz's sword), the Shadow Man, and the Harbringer (Or the Harbringer repelled his sword).

What about when he has Kalmar on the ground? Fighter's instinct. Kalmar tried to kill Rhue. Rhue has him on the ground. First instinct for anyone who fights, good or bad, is to finish them off. Unfortunately, Kalmar was quick enough to get his ass outta there.

Like I said, no indication his sword is intelligent. Just special.

[DSOK]

Like I said, no indication his sword is intelligent. Just special.

That's not what you said.* Rather:

We have no proof or indication that his [Rhue's] consiousness is modified at all.

*Or at least, it was not the statement in this thread that I was responding to.

[Amgard]

My bad. I was focusing on the wrong issue. I confuse these threads.

Still, his grip on memory is not just explainable by: "He doesn't know so he makes it up"

Notice we're given the choice. I think WE decide who Rhue remembers. The plot is more open that way. Rhue was mauled by two people as a child, and through natural trauma, wouldn't have a clear idea of what mauled him (See Serge in Chrono Cross. Same thing)

[DSOK]

Notice we're given the choice. I think WE decide who Rhue remembers. The plot is more open that way. Rhue was mauled by two people as a child, and through natural trauma, wouldn't have a clear idea of what mauled him (See Serge in Chrono Cross. Same thing)

I don't know what you're talking about with the Chrono Cross thing. Serge was mauled by a panther demon. Then he drowned (or was rescued by Kid). It was the second event that was different in the bifurcated universes.

[Takarious]

I think you all have overlooked one simple fact: Morality is defined only in the eye of its beholder. To point the finger at an individual/idea and label it as "evil" only defines it so from YOUR perspective. While I do agree that to some extent western civilization holds its own social moral value system which molds the general public idea of evil, it still does not make ones personal decision on the matter concrete and absolute. In this light, allow me to remind you that the society in The Way is NOT a complete model of a western civilization, their society holds many important values that differ from ours. This influence can be attributed to many things, including guided theology, the past time of "The Plunge", and the existance of the lower way. Albeit this is only speculation, the fact remains that the society values on Lun's world are not the same as ours, so we cannot truely judge whether or not the purpose behind the characters actions were just or honorable.

[DSOK]

I think you all have overlooked one simple fact: Morality is defined only in the eye of its beholder.

Um, no.

I have been specifically arguing against this point of view from the beginning. Morality is not relative or defined by society. It is absolute.