Do you believe in god?

[Shindy]

how the fuck are you gonna be ur self in heaven or hell if your brain that contains all the memories and consciousness is rotten and turned into dust? <= from some random source

now i thought this for a moment... it is so wierd.

anyone got an explanation that is true?

[Telephalsion]

I prefer not thinking about these things, especially since I'm still somewhat of a teenager, and still pretty uncertain of my role and that sort of crap. So I wont ponder much, well, not much more than I am while typing this.
Basically I beleive in the spirit, I wont go into deities and trancendent enteties, but I definately beleive in that you are composed of more than flesh, bone and signals.

[Shindy]

u forgot one: ur brain. and those four are what makes us.

but... there is no spirit... there is no mind... its just part of our brain that makes us think we are valued...

okay now that question above is... unsatisfying. a counter example to the goal we all want to achieve.

[Telephalsion]

YOu're bordering on a reductionistic view on the human being, the reductionistic veiw states that humans are nothing more than matter composed in a complex manner, complex anough to enable us to think, nothing spiritual, when we die, we just die.

A rather sad way of looking at life.

[Teenr0cker]

I like Tele's take on the matter, but I have more to say as well.

I concern myself with the validity of the bible. The bible is a 'message' from God recorded by man, who we know is stated as flawed, so wouldn't that make the entire bible biased? I thought so. I do not take religion seriously in a christian aspect because too many things are wrong with it. We do not drag divorced women into the town square and stone them with very painful stones (as opposed to the getting stoned Iteroth does). We do not have a monarchy in most nations now. Therefore, we can assume the times have changed, thus, some of the ideals are biased. However, the other ideals like loving ones neighbor and such are more like moral standards which you must follow with dedication. As for other religions, I can only make assumptions. However, I'm trying to decide on my own whether I believe all this religious jargen, or whether I'm simply agnostic (sp?) and go to church to keep my parents happy.

[Forerunner]

This was one of the first things we debated in (would you believe it) IPT.

And this is one of the best representations of the possible arguments, I believe this all classes under metaphysics, which is defined as the study of ultimate reality.

IDEALISM

This is the view that the only reality is the ideal world. A well known exponent of this view was Plato, a philosopher in ancient Greece (428-347 B.C.). Plato believed that the physical world around us is not real; it is constantly changing and thus you can never say what it really is. There is a world of ideas which is a world of unchanging and absolute truth. This is reality for Plato. Does such a world exist independent of human minds? Plato thought it did, and whenever we grasp an idea, or see something with our mind's eye, we are using our mind to conceive of something in the ideal world. There are a number of proofs of this ideal world. The concepts of geometry, such as the concept of a circle, which is a line equidistant from a point, is something which does not exist in the physical world. All physical circles, such as wheels, drawings, etc. are not perfectly round. Yet our mind has the concept of a perfect circle. Since this concept could not come from the physical world, it must come from an ideal world. Another proof is that from moral perfection. We can conceive of a morally perfect person, even though the people we know around us are not morally perfect. So where does someone get this idea of moral perfection? Since it could not have been obtained from the world around us, it must have come from an ideal world. Platonism has been an extremely influential philosophy down through the centuries.


DUALISM

Dualism is the philosophy that there are two kinds of reality: material and immaterial. There is a physical world as well as a non-physical or spiritual world. There is a problem in showing how the physical world and ideal world are related. Are physical objects imperfect copies of ideal objects?

In each person there is a dualism according to this philosophy. This is the dualism of mind and body. There is a common expression which speaks of "mind over matter" which assumes this dualism. But a problem arises when trying to explain how the two substances can interact. As an example, in movies about ghosts (which are non-physical) if a person tries to strike a ghost their hand goes past the ghost because there is no way to interact with such a being. So while the dualistic view is commonly held there are serious philosophical problems with such a view.


MATERIALISM

On this view only the world of matter is real. Thoughts, ideas and other non-physical things are merely movements of physical matter or chemical reactions. There is no reality beyond the physical.


THE PROBLEM OF EVIL

Here is a metaphysical problem which has puzzled thinkers through the centuries. It is stated this way:

If God is all powerful and all good then there would be no evil in the world.

But there is evil in the world.

Therefore God is not all powerful or all good.

If the first two premises are true must the conclusion be true? Some answers to this have tried to deny the first premise by appealing to our free will as the source of evil. This however does not account for natural disasters and similar types of evil.

Others have tried to deny the second premise by saying that these calamities are not really evil; they build our character and make us stronger.

Others have accepted the conclusion and often postulate another being, such as a devil, who has power in the universe.


GOD

There are a number of logical arguments given for the existence of God. These arguments rely only on human reasoning; they do not invoke religious faith. They were proposed by philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) and Saint Anselm (1033-1109) during the Middle Ages in Europe.

The Cosmological Argument:

If there was an infinite chain of causes of the universe then there would be no universe now.

But there is a universe now.

Therefore there must be a first cause of the universe.

The Argument from Design:

Most organisms in the world act for a purpose.

Most organisms are not aware of acting for a purpose.

There must be a superior being directing their purpose.

The Ontological Argument:

The concept of a supreme being is of a being with all perfections.

Existence is a perfection.

The supreme being must exist.

All three of the above arguments have been analyzed and criticized a great deal. They do show how human reasoning tries to grapple with the concept of a supreme being.

[Telephalsion]

The thing about got and evil is well handles in buddhism, in buddhism you don't sin, you're unwise. THis explains well why there is "evil" in todays world, it's because so many people simply don't know better.

Christianity's view on evil is flawed, to say the least, why would god create a world only to have the beings created as his idols to commit sins he have forbidden in it? According to genesis god created all life, but also that the snake seduced Eve into eating the forbidden fruit and sharing it with Adam, now why would god do that? The sayiong "God works in mysterious ways" can handle pretty much anything.

I'm not that well read in Islam, but basically it's the same as christianity, with a few exceptions. From my point of view first came Jewish faith, the Torah scrolls and all that, then came jesus, and after him Christianity was born, whereafter Muhammed came and Islam was born. They're all based on one God, and it's the same god, Allah and God are one and the same, Cause if you're not completely ignorant you'll see that Allah means God.
What has happened is taht despite all the three holy scriptures, (Torah, Bible and Koran) Have all been somehow misintepreted, and again going back to the buddhist view that humans aren't capable of making the right descisions always, people couldn't comprehend all the information in the books and only used what they understood, thus creating the values they live by, and that's why for example, the spanish inquisition sought out non-catholics and killed them because the Bible said "go out and spread the word of god", and they interpreted it as that the only right faith is the bilbical faith. To me it's all stupid, religious fanatics are the worst things to ever have walked the face of the earth, well, maybe pedophiles and rapists are worse, but it's a close tie.
Fanatics usually take the spiritual text and beleive only in that, and ignore the world outside. All of theese books were written long ago, before we had our current society and knowledge.

(oh man what a rant)

There are so many religions, and one has to wonder if it's a coincidence that almost all religions speak of love for other humans?
Some that don't are Norse mythology, which is pretty much a warriors faith, it is based on that one should live a warriors life and when you die you come to valhalla. Although even here love exists and is a key role.

I'll post more some other time, but my basic point is that throughout history man has wanted an explanation of where existence came from, what the npurpose of existence was and if there was existence after death.

[Strayed Wanderer]

For questioning your existence I shall punish you all. I created you for shits'n'giggles, nothing more.

Honestly, anyone who isn't content enough with living and has to question why they live, needs to die.

[ReaperGal]

I see three possibilities.

1. God doesn't exist.

2. God does exist, and is a major asshole.

3. God does exist, but is too all-encompassing to care about us.

[AznChipmunk]

I do believe in God.

Yeah...

[Iteroth]

I've been atheist since I was nine

The whole notion of an omnipotent, omniscient being that no one ever sees just seems kind of hokey to me. Not to put any religious people down or anything, but it seems pretty far fetched.

[RentACop]

Short answer: Functionally, no.
Long answer: At this time, a definitive statement to the existence of god can not be made either way, so until absolute knowledge can be obtained I withhold judgement.

Anselm's ontological argument for god isn't a very good one (though it is thought-provoking), Gualino in his debates with Anselm used this argument....which I didn't put into argument form but you get the idea

1. First, think of the most perfect island.
2. Odds are that island does not exist.
3. Since the island does not exist, we must not be thinking of the most perfect island, since if it was the most perfect it would have to exist according to Anselm's reasoning.

Descartes argument is, in my opinion, "better". Roughly:
1. Humanity has perfect concepts, such as in geometry or of a perfect circle, etc.
2. Humans are imperfect beings.
3. Since we are imperfect and have perfect concepts, these concepts are inherent as we could not reach them through observation of the world.
4. Inherent concepts must have been placed there by a perfect being.

I think I butchered a couple parts, but there it is. Of course, it helps if you've been studying his Meditations and thus have an idea of why he thinks that, but his argument has done much more in swaying me than any church has. Of course, my church was fundamentalist so that's not really saying much.

[fwacho]

an intersting qurestion. although... "The Way" addresses the quesiton of evil and justice. I think that discussion is on the Estrana board somewhere.

There is interesting evidence that a soul exists. I'll giv eyou two diffeernt kinds. 1) an expeirement was done with TB pateints a few years back. (they were chosen becuase they barely move as they near death and thus the scales under the beds weren't distrubed) they experiement found that at the moment of death the body loses about a quarter of an ounce. There is your soul (I believe that God wuold be obligated to play by His own rules, thuse a soul would have to have some energy-thus mass-- if it existed)

also sience suggests that there is a fith dimension (light operates in this dimension giving it both wave and partical properties)

2) I have a freind that used to be into Newage. He got grabbed by "something" not entirely friendly while astral projecting. He still has a scar on his leg from it.

So there you have expiereiment / and expereience evidences for the existence of a soul.

[fwacho]

I see three possibilities.

1. God doesn't exist.

2. God does exist, and is a major asshole.

3. God does exist, but is too all-encompassing to care about us.

there are a few other possiblities:

4. God exists and is considerate enough to let us have our way and do what we want even when it hurts us or others.

(example... Kid puts finger in electical outlet and gets zapped. As a parent Icontinueally have to warn and punish my 1 year-old son for tryng to do this. I don't do this becasue I don't want him to have fun or am mean-spirited. I punish and warn him because I love him and want to see him avoid pain.)

Someone mentioned the Bible being outdated. We actaully have the biblical quarentine laws of Leviticus to thank for stoping the black plague in Europe. (someone got desperate enough to see what God said about hte situation) handwashing also comes from the Bible, so does sanitation instructions dealing with human waste. all the rules in the bible lead to healthy living and will extend your life and improve it's quality. Yes, It's inconvieninet to wash your hands and bury your dumps but it's that way for the germs too.


5. God esists but we're too either proud or self-ashamed to accpet the help he offers.

On the note of the snake...
Satan is known to be a rebel. someone who wanted to do things his way. It would have been pretty pointless of God to make robots to spend time with and become friends with. What would the point be? If God wants an honest relationship He would be obligated to give us a choice. and not just a choice but choice that mattered and has an effect on the world (be it good or evil) if choices didn't matter there wouldn't be point in having them, would there?

So if God wants to have a personal relationship with us, which the bible suggests, we need to be able to chose or reject him for the relationship to mean anything. Keeping in mind that God is the creator, he knows how the creation works. But being who we are we would rather try to do things our own way despite the fact that "dad" is waiting with the instruciton manual in hand to help us out if we would would just talk to him and ask. you all probaly have some idea about what happens if you don't pay attention to the instruction in a complicated project. (it invetably doens't work or breaks down quickly)

The Crusades....
This what happens when a selfish person thinks they know what God wants without bothering to investigate thoroughly. The crusades were motivated by hate, greed, and the desire for power. You might also note that those things are forbidden in the Bible (please remember that commoners couldn't read the Bible becasue it wasn't in their language yet and were easy prey to corrupted leaders who wanted to do things their own way.)

On another note I would like to point out that the god of the Koran is no tthe God of the Bible or the Torah... muslims will even agree on this point.

One last thing... Terry Goodkind once said, "People believe either what they want to believe, or what they are afraid must be true." This is the first rule of mass manipulation. To avoid it, there is balance somewhere in the middle tht must be sought. but when seekign the balance you must consider both side of the issues.

[fwacho]

I've been atheist since I was nine

The whole notion of an omnipotent, omniscient being that no one ever sees just seems kind of hokey to me. Not to put any religious people down or anything, but it seems pretty far fetched.

In understand your thought. but the other option (evolution) seems even more impossible to me from the evidence I've seen.

(thus you understand why evolution-Intelligent Design debate is so touchy. darwin was once quoted as saying "If even one example of something not evolving can be found my theory must be discarded" There have been alot of arguements suggesting so. I could argue with you all day but it wouldn't accomplish much becuase Athieism is a much a faith as Christianity. I will say, that sience is a major part of what led me to God.