Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Legend of the Past]

Being Israeli, I must ask for your opinion on the matter. It won't change my opinion of you (Unless you're radicals that want me dead, then it can't be avoided), but this is merely something I feel I should know... I won't elaborate on my opinions (While obvious), don't want to spark a flame-infected argument.

[Forerunner]

Call me naive if you will, but I think they should have been at peace for ages now.

Ever watched Gundam Seed? Well I think the feud between these 2 countries is much the same.
Something started a war, or a conflict (I can't remember the entire situation), and of course someone struck first. Then came the counter strike, then the first guys strike back because they were struck at, then the second guys strike back again, then the first guys, so on so forth.
And because everyone wants revenge, it won't stop until one of them refuses to fight back, but since no one will be the first to stop...

IMO, it's unlikely that the conflict will just dissapear, so maybe the best way to handle it would be to open negotiations. They wouldn't get anywhere, but at least some of the people fighting would stop fighting to negotiate, meaning less life lost.

[Wellsy]

...oh no, you did not just compare a real-life conflict where thousands of people have died to cartoon series...

Frankly, I think both sides should be at peace, but I find it harder and harder to sympathize with the Palestinians. All I've seen is Israel withdraw from towns and territories and Arab terrorists continue to blow up buses,dance halls, and pizza parlors. When Israel strikes back at terrorists who hide among the populace, of course there will be collateral damage and innocents killed, so neither side is free from blame. Looking at all the wars that have been fought, it seems nearly all have been provoked by Arab countries massnig troops or invading Israel. And despite this, it appears to me that Israel is much more tolerant of Arabs within its borders - many work and live there - but if you're a Hebrew in Palestinian territory, you'd better get out, you don't deserve to be there to desecrate their land. Add to that every country surrounding Israel wants it wiped off the map, and on top of that the Palestinians just elected Hamas, which has in its charter the destruction of Israel, to power. There must be a two-state solution, Palestinians do deserve their own country, but first cooler heads in the Arab world must prevail and realize that Israel has every right to be there as well.

[Legend of the Past]

Well, call it a biased opinion, but here's my side of the story.

Basically, 80 or so years ago we helped the British win WWI. In gratitude, and in hopes of us being a more reasonable ally than the Arabs, they decided to give us the land, in what was called the Declaration of Balfour. Except there was one major flaw. Earlier, they promised the land to the arabs. Part of the results of the DoB was that they broke former promises. That was one of them. As a result, the arabs became pissy and decided to take the land by force.

Now, again, call me biased. But from what I gathered, the Muslim religion is a very curropted and treacherous religion from the get-go. Muhammad broke an oath that he won't attack El-Medina for ten years. Four year later, he overran El-Medina. My discussions with an arab (Very nice guy, but affected by religion... Not unlike me... or anyone else, I'm sure) revealed some very intresting things. Basically, the arabs believe Christians and Jews are like the older version of Islam, sort of like Beta versions, for lack of a better term. Also, according to them, when our Messiah comes it'll be the Anti-Christ who'll damn everyone to hell. Also, the Arabic word for Liar is the Hebrew word for Messiah.

I could ramble on and on about how they suck, but don't get me wrong- I don't hate Arabs. I dislike their religion, that much is true, but I don't hate them. I very much respect you saying we should of been at peace by now, and I hope that would be so. A few years back, terrorist bombings were at their prime, and every day was filled with fear. Even if you compared two things that shoulden't be compared, Forerunner, and although I haven't watched Gundam Seed, I'll have to say this: Open negotiations isn't an option. We've given them Gaza already, but they still want more. There's a huge conflict about this: Some believe in open negotiations, some believe in total eradication of the Arabs. Myself? I believe in giving them land, but for Pete's sake, the country's smaller than New Jersey! How much more can we give?!

[Telephalsion]

I'm a very poor poster, making long texts is a rarity for me here. So indulge...

It'd be uneducated and stupid to say both such, and peace 30 years ago is a bit naive, but i still voted for it. Personally the whole conflict is bullshit, maybe it's just the dark cynical me who thinks the world would be better off if the whole region flew into a full scale war. But I canät think like that since it would take civilian casualties, probably more of them than there are currently.

From what i've understood the israeli have two arguments going for them. 1) They got the land from god.

I'll grant them that to some extent, but I'm christian, I've been schooled in the bible, I'm kind of forced to accept many things in the bible, I can't just take some things out and ignore others like a common fanatic. But what about the muslims? They haven't got a passage in which Allah gives the Israeli part of the earth to live on. So it's pretty obvious they wont give a shit about the religious aspects here.

They were given land back after the world wars, something that has both good and bad sides. But that's been explored already, and by far more intelligent and more eloquent people than me.
Nevertheless, the palestinians live on their homeland, and suddenly some new guys pop in saying that they'll have to move sicne they've been given their land. Personally I think it's fucking stupid for the Israli to for a second beleive taht the palestinians will just leave their land without questions. They've lived there for generations, despite the Israeli having settled there prior to that.

If you go further back you'll notice taht both the Islamic faith and the Jewish faith stem from Abraham. He had two sons, each one forming one religion. Ismael and Isac I think. Can't remember which one made what, but [url="http://www.google.com]google[/url] is your friend.

So if there are any rivalries between Arabs and Jews it's actually an elevated form of sibling rivalry, only now each sibling is a people, and they have armies.

I don't know who threw the first rock, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the first rock taht caused the whole ordeal. i think it boiled into what it is today after quite a few rocks.

A family forced to relocate here.
A family refusing to leave here.
Some idiot jews raping palestinians over there.

I was about to mention t"urn the other cheek", but that was Jesus, and only the Arabs would beleive in that. I'm unsure on what parts of the Torah, Talmud and whatnot mention mercy, but I'm very sure on the Koran mentioning mercy and forgiving.

It's a bit late to cast blame anyways, and it might not be too late to heal this, but it wont come easy, and it sure as hell wont solve itself.
Sadly I don't know how to solve it myself.

Both sides demonize eachother, and they teach their children this. So itä's true what they say, the future lies in the hands of the children.
Kids are easily manipulated, no matter what you do, a parent is a very high influence on a child. If it's present the child will learn, if not present the child might mourn, might try to act in memory or might even seek revenge. I can only hope that the childish dreams of hoep and peace will come true, and hopefully they'll read their holy scpriptures well enough to realize violence only spawns more violence.

[Legend of the Past]

I knew someone would say that this entire war is bullshit, sonner or later.

Yeah, we say we got the land from God. But moreover, the common mistakes the Arabs make is that we just popped up and took their land. Mistake. We didn't 'take' anything, we were given land. Also, note that for the half decade prior to Israel being the Jewish country, Jews came to Israel, and built, with their own hands, communities, which later on became agricultural thriving success'. Also note, they purchased the land.

Basically, what I'm saying is that if the Arabs have complaints, they should direct them to the UN instead of blowing up in Allha's name. Where Allha said anything about blowing up, though, is beyond me. Jihad just means directing force and finance (Yes, Allha speaks of finance >_>) for an important cause.

[Telephalsion]

I did not know Jews settled there prior to the great immigration (or what you should call it)
But I presume that they didn't meet any hate from the Arabs since they purchased land, but then when land was taken by the UN and given to the Jews, well it was just stupid from the UN's side to do that.

Personally I like most religions (cept like voodoo, something about eating steaks marinated with menstruation blood that creeps me out.) And even if Islam and the Jewish faith (what do you call it anyway?) both have parts in their text that might contradict other parts, and some parts that might not be very well adaptable with the current times, they both are rather kind religions, if you take all of it.

Again, personally. I think that religions grew to give people meaning, give answers and help them. The whole part about not eating certain foods might very well bewritten because at that time those foods were almost impossible to store, and grew bad very fast, so eating it was very sure to give deseases. This might've resulted in people thinking it was a punishment. Anyways, back on track.

Okay legend, I might say something not entirely correct and please correct me if I do.
Ahem:
You've probably read the entire Torah correct? You've been to Talmud sessions right? The Torah is the truth or so I'm told, but even if it is the truth it will be intepreted differently, that's why the talmud exists to discuss and come to a good intepretation of the Torah.
Wouldn't it be great if you could read through the Koran, have a couple of arabs read through the Torah and then discuss it together?
A cliché often used is "Know your enemy". Personally, if you understood your enemy you could select one of two ways to proceed.
Use what you've learned to defeat your enemy or use waht you've learned to make peace.
Don't you think by understanding and repecting eachotehrs faiths will you be able to create and integrated community with some level of religious neutrality?

[Legend of the Past]

Again, Arabs consider the Torah and Judaism (It's Judaism, yeah) to be like a lesser version of their own religion. While I haven't read the entire Torah, I know most of it.

Actually, before the great immigration there were a few Jewish communities, but that was it. That half decade had the Halias, when Jews migrated in more organized, larger groups. We bought land from the Arabs, but they didn't like it. Not really.

[Telephalsion]

Well the neighbors might not like ti, but someone agreed to sell the soil, so it's all good there.

Well, it might be the case taht some arabs, proably all of the fanatics most likely, consider their own religion to be the best, making themselves an elitist group, handling everything else as lessers, thus justifying the slaughter of innocent followers of the "lesser" groups.

What does the Torah say about mercy and forgiving?

Being the first interpretation of God's will it wouldn't have any room for new versions. It'd be like it was expecting failure or improvement.
Islam came after Jesus, that much I know, otherwise Jesus woulnd't be mentioned as a prophet in Islam.

The problem with all Abrahamic religions is that they take themseles as being absolute truth. unlike eastern faiths, can't recall if it was Buddhism or Hinduism, which accepts other faiths.

Personally I've read good and bad history about Arabs. Good and bad history about Christians, but I can only recall the biblical tales of Jews, and the middle eastern conflict things as current ones (save for the reading about jewish scientists getting the nobel prize)

[Legend of the Past]

The Old Testament is basically Traziun. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Forgiving... Nothing I can remember of the top of my head, but God had a soft side.

[Telephalsion]

I thought eye for an eye tooth for a tooth came from Babylon? or Ur, or some crap like taht, but If you find any ofrgiving side to the God of the Torah (Yahweh no?) then please share.

[Legend of the Past]

DON'T.
SAY.
HIS.
NAME.

Ever, in my presence. It pisses Jews off.

Anyway, hmm... I'll see and ask around. Though that might take a while. God really got angry a lot of times and killed loads of people. The Flood's just one example. But after the Golden Calf thing, Moses begged for forgiveness and God forgave. Sort of.

[Glenn47]

I like this guy. He should get a trophy.

[Greatchickenman]

Using the argument that Jews purchased the land is about the same arguments that English settlers gave for kicking Indians off their land. You can't purchase land from people who don't own the land...

Either way, it's obvious that we can't all get along, since the two sides are just too culturally different. However, the one thing they have in common is that most Americans hate both jews and arabs. But, who cares what Americans think, right? More people vote for American Idol than for our president.

I personally love everyone.

But, to tell it like it is, I can't stand Jews that say that the land belongs to them and that they should have it. Because, fact of the matter is, it doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the Palestinians. That being said, I don't really care if Jews and Palestinians live in the same place. It's just that if you feel unsafe why don't you just leave? Either way, atrocities are commited on both sides and the cold war you two have going on is a shade of gray, and picking sides is hard. The Palestians are justified in wanting their land, but their means to achieve their goal are not. The Jews are Justified in wanting their own land, but they never should have had it in the first place.

Palestian Suicide Bombers > Busloads of People
Israeli Soldiers > Palestinian Children


I don't even know why Jews would want to move there anyways.. I would never want to move somewhere surrounded by hostile nations.

[Legend of the Past]

...We didn't say we own the land, we were given the land by the British. They got the land from the League of Nations when hey divided the WWI turf. Basically, if I get from someone a toy gun, in a way that's well accepted, then wrap it up and give it to my friend for his birthday, I see no reason why the first friend should come and start toruring my other friend for the toy gun. All he has to do is ask for another gun for all I care.

The issue here is that we DID get the land, and the Arabs have a hard time realizing that. Israel IS ours, it's been ours for 58 years. Yeah, it wasn't nice on the British side to ignore the Arabs like that, on that I agree, but why attack us? Woulden't it be simpler to just go and say: "Hey, look at us, we're a people with no country who aren't intrested in being a minority. Help, please?" Not to note that if the Arabs settled in with us, in ten years the Jews would be the minority. They breed in alarming rates, the fastest on earth, actually.

But, to tell it like it is, I can't stand Jews that say that the land belongs to them and that they should have it. Because, fact of the matter is, it doesn't belong to you.

Fine, let's remove the Jews, rebuild the Ottoman regime, give them all the Israeli weapons, nukes, buildings and money. World threat, anyone?