Richard Dawkins- The Root of all evil

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Postby TeppicTheBloodLyn » Sat May 20, 2006 10:51 am

Greatchickenman wrote:Ok... you're wrong..


a pitbull and a doberman can mate and still have fertile (and angry) offspring but they are still different species. They are still of the Canis genus, but the second part of their name is wrong. It's the laws of binomial nomenclature.


If being able to have fertile offspring makes you the same species that would mean that homo sapien and homo eretus is the same thing, in which case you would be wrong, once again.


Seeing your point, I looked into it and found that there were quite a number of different definitions of the term species. Quoted from wikipedia:

A species is a group of organisms that can interbreed in nature to produce a fertile offspring. Stated in another way, species are reproductively isolated groups of populations. Organisms classified in the same species have very similar gene pools.

The definition of a species given above as taken from Mayr, is somewhat idealistic. Since it assumes sexual reproduction, it leaves the term undefined for a large class of organisms that reproduce asexually. Biologists frequently do not know whether two morphologically similar groups of organisms are "potentially" capable of interbreeding. Further, there is considerable variation in the degree to which hybridization may succeed under natural and experimental conditions, or even in the degree to which some organisms use sexual reproduction between individuals to breed. Consequently, several lines of thought in the definition of species exist:

Typological species
A group of organisms in which individuals are members of the species if they sufficiently conform to certain fixed properties. The clusters of variations or phenotypes within specimens (ie: longer and shorter tails) would differentiate the species. This method was used as a "classical" method of determining species, such as with Linnaeus early in evolutionary theory. However, we now know that different phenotypes do not always constitute different species (e.g.: a 4-winged Drosophila born to a 2-winged mother is not a different species). Species named in this manner are called morphospecies.

Morphological species
A population or group of populations that differs morphologically from other populations. For example, we can distinguish between a chicken and a duck because they have different shaped bills and the duck has webbed feet. Species have been defined in this way since well before the beginning of recorded history. This species concept is much criticised because more recent genetic data reveal that genetically distinct populations may look very similar and, contrarily, large morphological differences sometimes exist between very closely-related populations. Nonetheless, most species known have been described solely from morphology.

Biological / Isolation species
A set of actually or potentially interbreeding populations. This is generally the most useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but meaningless for organisms that do not reproduce sexually. It does not distinguish between the theoretical possibility of interbreeding and the actual likelihood of gene flow between populations and is thus impractical in instances of allopatric (geographically isolated) populations. The results of breeding experiments done in artificial conditions may or may not reflect what would happen if the same organisms encountered each other in the wild, making it difficult to gauge whether or not the results of such experiments are meaningful in reference to natural populations.

Mate-recognition species
A group of organisms that are known to recognise one another as potential mates. Like the isolation species concept above, it applies only to organisms that reproduce sexually. Unlike the isolation species concept, it focuses specifically on pre-mating reproductive isolation.

Phylogenetic / Evolutionary / Darwinian species
A group of organisms that shares an ancestor; a lineage that maintains its integrity with respect to other lineages through both time and space. At some point in the progress of such a group, members may diverge from one another: when such a divergence becomes sufficiently clear, the two populations are regarded as separate species.

Microspecies
Species that reproduce without meiosis or mitosis so that each generation is genetically identical to the previous generation. See also apomixis.

In practice, these definitions often coincide, and the differences between them are more a matter of emphasis than of outright contradiction. Nevertheless, no species concept yet proposed is entirely objective, or can be applied in all cases without resorting to judgement. Given the complexity of life, some have argued that such an objective definition is in all likelihood impossible, and biologists should settle for the most practical definition. For most vertebrates, this is the biological species concept (BSC), and to a lesser extent (or for different purposes) the phylogenetic species concept (PSC). Many BSC subspecies are considered species under the PSC; the difference between the BSC and the PSC can be summed up insofar as that the BSC defines a species as a consequence of manifest evolutionary history, while the PSC defines a species as a consequence of manifest evolutionary potential. Thus, a PSC species is "made" as soon as an evolutionary lineage has started to separate, while a BSC species starts to exist only when the lineage separation is complete
Richard Dawkins wrote:Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.


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Postby Greatchickenman » Sat May 20, 2006 11:19 am

alright then.

Quoted from wikipedia:

a species is assigned a two-part name in Latin. The genus is listed first (with its leading letter capitalized), followed by a specific epithet. For example, humans belong to the genus Homo, and are in the species Homo sapiens. The name of the species is the whole binomial not just the second term (the specific epithet).
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Postby TeppicTheBloodLyn » Sat May 20, 2006 12:18 pm

Greatchickenman wrote:alright then.

Quoted from wikipedia:

a species is assigned a two-part name in Latin. The genus is listed first (with its leading letter capitalized), followed by a specific epithet. For example, humans belong to the genus Homo, and are in the species Homo sapiens. The name of the species is the whole binomial not just the second term (the specific epithet).


Well, with regard to the example you used earlier, is there any empirical evidence that Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus can produce fertile offspring?
Richard Dawkins wrote:Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.


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Postby Greatchickenman » Sat May 20, 2006 3:04 pm

If two species interact in the wild and their offspring are fertile then their offspring are a seperate species. Instead of combining the two species into one, there are three species.
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Postby Strayed Wanderer » Sun May 21, 2006 8:25 am

GCM, why in hell did you cite the law of binomial nomenclature? I feel like you opened a textbook on taxonomy and grabbed the first phrase in bold lettering.
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Postby Greatchickenman » Sun May 21, 2006 10:44 am

Because binomial nomenclature is how you name a species......?
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Postby Strayed Wanderer » Sun May 21, 2006 12:15 pm

Greatchickenman wrote:Ok... you're wrong..


a pitbull and a doberman can mate and still have fertile (and angry) offspring but they are still different species. They are still of the Canis genus, but the second part of their name is wrong. It's the laws of binomial nomenclature.


If being able to have fertile offspring makes you the same species that would mean that homo sapien and homo eretus is the same thing, in which case you would be wrong, once again.


Unless you actually mention a genus-species name, it has no connection to the topic. And as I stated earlier, I believe you were wrong about the dogs anyway. I don't want to go off on a side argument here anyway...
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Postby Sling » Sun May 21, 2006 1:02 pm

Isn't Evolution just the same thing as Adaption?
In this day and age, an era where there are people who actually throw shit at each other, anything, could be possible.
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Postby TeppicTheBloodLyn » Sun May 21, 2006 1:09 pm

Sling wrote:Isn't Evolution just the same thing as Adaption?


Evolution is the naturally occuring system by which adaption happens.
Richard Dawkins wrote:Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.


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Postby Telephalsion » Sun May 21, 2006 2:26 pm

Adaptation can spark evolution.

Adaptation is something natural to all beings, learning is a form of adaptation.

Evolution is a form of adaptation that isn't learnt, but instead passed down genetically.

Or something, you can look it up instead of litening to my rant.
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Any type of female.
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Postby Teenr0cker » Sun May 21, 2006 2:58 pm

I got an easier definition....Adaptation is something they accept in the southern US, not Evolution.


By Southern US, I mean christians. 8)
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Postby Eckolin » Sun May 21, 2006 5:33 pm

Adaptation: An alteration or adjustment in structure or habits, often hereditary, by which a species or individual improves its condition in relationship to its environment.
This could be a plunge game - Except it has 'issues' -
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Postby Strayed Wanderer » Sun May 21, 2006 6:06 pm

Teenr0cker wrote:I got an easier definition....Adaptation is something they accept in the southern US, not Evolution.


By Southern US, I mean christians. 8)


They don't really adapt to anything either.
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Postby Teenr0cker » Mon May 22, 2006 4:09 pm

Point taken.
Sage Of The Wise wrote:This sounds like the beginning of a sitcom. Think about it: "Coming this fall to Fox, Ralphie and the Hooker".
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Postby TeppicTheBloodLyn » Tue May 23, 2006 2:16 am

Found some more stuff with Dawkins. And interview about the tv-series the root of all evil.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohsie9msUec
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvHGw56QMuo
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9EU2FF3VzI

Also, my favorite clip from the series, the interview with Ted Haggard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE&search=Richard%20Dawkins
Richard Dawkins wrote:Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.


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